Listen to Neal’s most recent podcast guesting, an interview with Matthew Baltzell of Real Estate Journeys.
How To Scale Your Real Estate Business Virtually with Neal Bawa
Announcer: You’re now listening to Real Estate Journeys with Matthew Baltzell.
Matthew: Yo, what’s going on, everybody? This is your boy, Matty B., aka Matthew Baltzell, and welcome back to Real Estate Journeys, the exclusive podcast for new real estate investors looking to grow their brand and their business.
On today’s episode, we have on Neal Bawa. Neal is a affectionately known by his friends as the Mad Scientist of Multifamily, is a technologist and an entrepreneur in love with the power of numbers to create profit for his real estate investors. He is the CEO, founder, at Grocapitus, a commercial real estate investment company. Neal acquires commercial properties across the U.S. for 300-plus investors. Current portfolio of over 1,800 units and plans to be by 3,000 in 12 months.
Neal, welcome to the show.
Neal: Thanks so much for having me on the show. I’m really glad to be here.
Matthew: We’re glad to have you. Neal, I wanted to bring you on today because I’ve heard you on prior podcasts speaking about hiring VAs and I know that many people hear this and want to scale their business and you seem to be the man that’s had great success in scaling your real estate business and I wanted to pick your brain. Could you speak on behalf of how to really start hiring VAs and using VAs and how you go about using that in your process?
Neal: Sure. I will go into the specifics and the steps to hire VAs, but first I want to talk about mindset. If you want to be successful in hiring virtual assistants, maybe the first thing that you really want to do is stop calling them virtual assistants, because that word itself is destructive.
Because what it implies is somebody that does the shit work. I have this mining to do from this website and I’m going to grab this assistant and then I’m going to go in and basically grab stuff that I don’t have time to do. I want to make 100 phone calls and I only know 2 people will pick up. I’m going to hire a virtual assistant. That’s where most people go wrong.
There’s nothing wrong with doing any of those things, but you’re not going to scale your business using virtual assistants by doing those kinds of tasks. Those are basically one-time research tasks or one-time data collection tasks that I think virtual assistants are very good for.
But I think that if you truly want to scale your business with VAs, the first thing you want to do is to stop calling them VAs. In our company, no one is allowed to call them virtual assistants. They are called team members. It doesn’t matter whether they’re in the Philippines, which is where most of our VAs are, some are in India, or they’re in the U.S. They’re team members, they matter just as much as anybody else.
When you start your journey with a virtual assistant, your initial goal is, okay, I’m just going to hire somebody and I’m going to show you where to hire them and how to hire them and how to pick the best ones. I’m going to show you that. But what you’re trying to do is this: You’re trying to get away from having a part-time VA that works one hour a day or two hours a day and what you’re trying to do is to scale up to having a full-time person and then having two, and then having ten. That’s how you scale because full-time people give you much, much higher quality of work. They give you a deliverability that’s much higher than somebody that’s part-time.
That’s the first thing that I want you guys to think about. Change your mindset. These people are not here to do just the worst work. My virtual assistants, team members, are doing things that you’d be shocked. They are doing every part of our business. We inject them into every single part of our business. We constantly challenge them and the beauty of it is, because they are getting paid at a much lower scale, they’re from the Philippines, so they’re getting paid a lot less, we can afford to incentivize them when they do things that are outstanding. They do things that are out of the box. They create procedures and systems that make our whole company more efficient. Well, here’s $50.
Here in the U.S., that $50 may not actually change behavior, but in the Philippines, it actually has long-term changes in their behavior when they realize that you want them to use their mind, not just their time. It is their mind that you’re after, if you want to scale your company.
Matthew: How do you go about starting to find a team member, I should say, if we want to say go about hiring a team member. There we go. If we’re looking to bring on team members, you mentioned the Philippines and you’ve mentioned India. Are those good places to start or should I look at Serbia? Should I look at Eastern Europe? Should I look at South America? Like what parts of the world should I be going and what should I be looking for in a team member when bringing on somebody for a full-time assistant, executive assistant job.
Neal: The reason I mentioned the Philippines is that the world’s single largest collection of educated assistants comes from the Philippines. It’s an outsourcing country and because they have a massive number of call centers there, you’re going to get staff that has already received professional training, both on being on the phone with Americans, and also working with American software. That’s one of the key reasons you would want to look at the Philippines first before anywhere else.
There’s downsides of the Philippines. If you’re looking at South American, especially some parts of South America, the time difference between you and that person is going to be four hours. Most of the time it’s four hours and sometimes it’s five hours, which means that it becomes easier to work with the assistants and they’re not falling asleep. I prefer not to work with South Americans. I do work with Eastern Europeans for certain tasks that are technical because I find that Ukrainians are very good with either Excel, very high-level, difficult Excel manipulation, they’re also very good with software. That’s a niche.
Indians tend to be bad on the phone because the accent is much heavier than the Philippines, but they tend to be pretty good in accounting. Anything that’s related to back office and multitasking, administration staff, you’ll get really, really good staff in India.
What I’m finding, though, is in the Philippines, is my personal bang for the buck. I’m getting a better bang for the buck. I’ve always hired them through a website called Upwork.com, even though there’s another very good one called OnlineJobs.ph, and that one is specific to the Philippines. Upwork is the world’s largest outsourcing provider. They have millions of these people on there and pretty much every company, every country on the globe is represented.
I was joking with somebody that’s actually one Upworker from the Vatican on there. I guess he’s a part-time pastor or something like that.
There’s all these people and they’re very talented, but I have to tell you that the average or median level of competency is pretty low. A lot of these people are doing Upwork simply because they can’t get other jobs. But at the same time, and this is the interesting part of it, is that once you know how to filter those people out, then the median or average level of competency is actually very high.
It’s just that the number of people that are mediocre is vastly greater than the number of people that are not mediocre, but still, the talented people are still in the tens or hundreds of thousands. You’ve got a very wide choice, an incredibly wide choice. That’s why our company loves it.
We have, for every employee in the U.S., currently I think we have five employees in the U.S., we have Tammy, Anna, Neil, Karen—and I’m missing one, so five people here. Then we’ve got nine full-time virtual assistants. We use a 2:1 ratio and we hire them on a full-time basis. We’re not suggesting that you start that way. We’re suggesting you get there as quickly as you can.
Back to Upwork. The reason why we hire them from Upwork is firstly, it has reviews and those reviews are generally very dependable, kind of like Amazon’s reviews. On Amazon, everybody has to buy a product to write a review and you can plug one or two fake reviews, but it’s really hard to do dozens of fake reviews, so in general, Amazon reviews are reliable.
In the same way, Upwork has reviews and those reviews are extremely important to us.
Secondly, Upwork has a technology called the Upwork Tracker. What this Tracker does is that once it’s installed on the remote worker’s computer, it will take a snapshot of what they’re doing and it’s actually intelligent. It’s an artificial intelligence tracker, so if they’re not doing anything, it will take less snapshots. If they’re doing something, it’ll take more snapshots and it sort of builds a story line of their day and so then what it does, is it gives it an activity level.
If they’re pounding on their keyboard like mad during a 20-minute timeframe, it’ll give them a 10. If they basically just touch the keystroke during that 20-minute timeframe, then they’ll give it a 1 instead of a 10, or anything in between.
Matthew: This is a rating of 1 and 10 within the Upwork platform?
Neal: This is a rating system, correct, within the Upwork platform for each person for each day.
Neal: So, you can basically look at their day and you can see screenshot view, where you can see the screenshots of what they’re doing, so you can see if they’re working on your software or if they’re watching YouTube Philippino, right? You can see what it is that they were doing during that time. But if you switch the view away from the thumbnail view that shows the pictures to the list view, it now gives you, from using artificial intelligence, figures out their time that they were spending on different tasks. Usually how it figures it out is, it can read all of the heading on every single screen. If you’re on a Microsoft Word document called Joe’s Diary, it’s going to say Joe’s Diary in Upwork and it’s going to say Microsoft Word Joe’s Diary. Then if you’re in Chrome and you’re doing something in Chrome and that page is called Multifamily University, it’s going to say Chrome-Multifamily University.
By looking at and reading these headings, it actually knows what the person is doing and as the person switches to a different task, it then basically says, “Okay, I’m going to start a new subset.” Within that subset of 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, it actually gives them a ranking of 1 through 10, 1 being least busy, 10 being most busy.
Which means that we can do something with our people in the Philippines that we actually can’t even do with our people in the U.S. We have a very good idea of how busy they truly are. A lot of people say, “I don’t want to hire a VA because I don’t know if they’re working on my stuff or anybody else’s stuff.” The answer is, just go into Upwork and look. If the guy is pounding madly at his keyboard and his rating is an average of 8 or 9 on that day, he was truly very busy with your stuff and you can flip through the pictures to see what it is that he was doing. But Upwork is telling you this guy is super busy because on average he’s an 9 out of 10. But if he’s an average of 2 or 3 out of 10, then there are two possibilities. One is he has nothing to do, or he or she has nothing to do, or secondly, he had plenty to do, he simply ignored your work, he has another Upwork profile and another laptop and he’s basically working through that, which means time theft.
We have one of our senior operations managers, she’s in the Philippines as well, part of her job is every week she goes in and looks at everyone else on our team, she looks at their trackers. If she sees low activity, she basically just talks with them. Just like, “Your activity levels are very low. What are you doing? What’s the problem? Are you falling asleep? What’s the issue?” If the activity level doesn’t improve, we let them go.
By doing this very early on, we set the right expectations. In fact, in our interviewing script on Upwork, we mention that we check your activity trackers. Anybody whose plan it is to steal time by using two different profiles and two different laptops, simply doesn’t apply. They know that they’re wasting their time.
By using that technique, we can actually tell how busy our people are and get a very, very high, average return. Our company’s belief is that the average productivity of our people in the Philippines is higher than the average productivity of the people in the U.S. because the people in the U.S. don’t have Upwork installed on their computer.
Matthew: Now, you’re paying hourly, is that correct?
Neal: We pay them hourly, but we might as well be paying them on a daily basis because we don’t believe in part-time staff, so even when we open a part-time position, our goal is to take it to full-time, so it might be two hours a day and then goes to four, goes to eight very quickly.
All of our staff work 8-5 Pacific. Whenever possible, you should not allow your staff to work flex hours. You do not want to give him work and say, “Come back to me the next day.” We would much rather say, “If you’re going to work with me an hour every day, I want you to work from 8 A.M. to 9 A.M. Pacific or 9 A.M. to 10 A.M. Pacific. I want you to work a specific slot. I’m offering you a remote position, not a flex position. There’s a difference between the two and we are very clear on that.
My staff must log into Slack, which is our collaboration software. We don’t like to use email in our company, we think email is evil, everything gets lost. Communication and collaboration occurs almost entirely using Slack channels. So, they have to log into Slack basically at 5 minutes before 8 A.M. and they can’t log out until 5 P.M.
It’s a very strict system and that’s how I suggest you deal with everybody. If you do not understand what Slack does, you need to get a software like Slack. Slack is free for light use. Obviously, we’re paying for it, but for light use, Slack is an extremely free tool. What you shouldn’t do is think that slack is like Skype. It is not. It takes a while to understand its power. It is a corporate tool. It is a collaboration tool. Skype is simply a connection mechanism. Do you not monitor using your staff using Skype, definitely. Even if you have to pay $10 a month for your Skype license, or whatever, $6, please pay that, because you will get a lot more value out of your remote staff. Not just your remote Philippino staff. If you’ve got one person working in Denver and one in New York and one in Houston, you’ll get a lot more value out of that as well by using a tool like Slack.
Because you need to be set up. If you’re going remote, you need the tools to make things work and a lot of people don’t understand that.
Matthew: When you’re looking to hire somebody from, we’ll say the Philippines, or abroad in general, do you find that it’s difficult to get people to be on your schedule. Let’s say the Philippines, they’re working what, like 9 or so through the night? Like 9 P.M. to, we’ll say, 4 A.M. in the morning?
Neal: Yeah, they’re about 15 hours ahead. Basically, they’re almost the exact opposite of our time, which means that it’s very inconvenient for them to work that way. The answer is yes, it is. We simply ignore the 99% of people on Upwork that do not want to work nights. But the 1% that not only want to work nights but are also comfortable with it and have been doing it for years, it’s still a quarter million people. It’s still an extremely large population of people that when we are interviewing them, we’re basically looking for people that are used to working nights, that work in call centers. Obviously, if they work a call center, then 90% of them would work U.S. hours. Most call centers, most of their volume is going to be during U.S. daytime or UK daytime. Either way, they’re working night hours, which is fine with us.
The answer is yes, they don’t like it, but there’s hundreds of thousands of them that are not only used to it, but they actually eventually start liking it because it’s very noisy during the day in the Philippines. Traffic is very heavy there. It’s not like there, there’s a lot of traffic noise in the background and so at night, when it’s quiet, it’s actually easier for them to make phone calls.
Matthew: Can you speak a little more in depth about the parameters that you use, the metrics you use, when you’re sending out an initial offer, as far as like a screening process is concerned? What are you putting in there as far as filtering out the bad characters from the good characters?
Neal: Sure. What’s interesting is that regardless of what we put in there, we can’t filter them out that way. I’ll give you my filtering mechanism, but it’s basically—my filtering mechanism is we ignore all incoming applicants. We just reach out to applicants ourselves that meet our criteria because what we find is, we tell them, okay, this is what we need. Then we still get bombarded with all kinds of people that have never even worked on Upwork or are brand new. We just basically delete all the incoming profiles of all the incoming applicants.
When we post a job we basically tell them, look, you got to work 8-5, you’ve got to have a huge amount of experience. We’re typically looking for people that have already made $30,000 on Upwork. We know that somebody that has made $30,000 on Upwork has probably worked 5,000 hours, that’s 2-1/2 years. Some of the people that we have right now have done double or triple that. They’ve been on Upwork for 12 years. It used to be called Odesk and they were part of that.
We’re looking for people that are very, very experienced because what happens is, a lot of those employers were not like us. They were not doing full-time work. They were just doing 20 hours with this guy and 50 hours there. Every time you do all these short-term gigs, you learn more. Just like a consultant. A consultant goes into 50 different companies, they learn 50 different systems and 50 different processes. They get better.
What we’re looking for is people that have a minimum of 30 documented jobs on Upwork and they have a minimum of $30,000 earned on Upwork. For those jobs, they now have 100% approval rating. Not 96, not 98, 100. Because we find that because people are paying so little for these people in the Philippines, they tend to be a little bit too liberal with their five-star ratings. What we found was, if you wanted to have true superstars in our team—and we have 9 employees on our team with 5 superstars. The only way to get to them is stick to that 100% approval rating. If they’re 99, we simply ignore them.
And as I mentioned, once we put our posting and we say all these things, people ignore that. Incoming people come in, we just basically delete the on our profile. The way we hire people is, that we have a Slack channel called Team Member Recruiting. One of our staff is assigned to it whenever we open a requisition. She goes in, and every day, she has to invite 250 people that meet this criteria in the Philippines. 250 people for 1 job, 1 position. No, not 250 for 1 position, 250 per day.
Matthew: Oh, okay.
Neal: This is hard, and she spends four hours doing those invites every day, so it takes us 4 hours of work to invite the 250 people that match the whole $30,000 or more, 100% job satisfaction, 30 jobs or more. Those are three criteria that we look for and of course, the fourth one is, they must be in the Philippines. Right?
Now, out of those 250 people all of them employed. People love them, they’re great, they’re obviously very experienced. Most of them just ignore our request or they read our request and realize, this is a very strict company, they want to work 9-5 Pacific, they’re going to check the Upwork Tracker, I don’t want to work for them.
Then there’s a bunch who are like, this is exactly the kind of company that I’m looking for because I want one job that lasts years. Most jobs on Upwork last like a few weeks. But this is a platinum-level company that pays $100,000 a year or more to Upworkers. They have an incredible track record, five-star reviews as an employer, I want to work for them.
Now, out of those 250 people, about 15 or 16 respond back to us and send us written bios. Now at that point is when we start reading their profiles. Previously, we weren’t reading their profiles because it would take too long to read 250 profiles every day. We were simply looking for those three metrics. If they did, we invited them.
Now, we’ve got 15 or 16 people every day that basically are saying, “Yep, I want to be interviewed.” Now we read their profiles. What are we looking for in their profiles? Well, firstly, we want a blend of CSR and VA experience. Virtual assistant experience and CSR, customer service rep. A customer service rep is either doing chat duties or phone duties. We want a blend of those because that means that the person, he or she has got the right software. Mostly we hire females, so we only have one male in our team of—well, ten full-timers, actually we have two. Yeah, no, one male, ten full-timers. It’s a 1:10 ratio and one of the big reasons, there’s a lot of call centers want women because women have lighter voices and their accent is much easier to understand. Men tend to be—we’re more gruff, we tend to eat up more words and it’s harder to understand us, deeper voice. Especially deeper voice tied with accent is much harder to understand. I tend to hire mostly women for that reason, but most of the ones that are on there are women anyway.
When they come back in, those 15 people, when we’re reading their profile, we want that blend of experience and then we want something else that is the magic. This is our secret sauce. Let’s say our review says, “This was a good VA who completed the job on time,” or “He’s hardworking,” or “He’s cheery, he’s happy.” Those are bad reviews for us. We only want to hire people that say thing like, “This is the most outstanding virtual assistant ever we worked for.” “This is a rock star. Magnificent. Unbelievable. Stunning.” We are looking for superlative words or phrases. Those superlative words and phrases must come from a minimum of two different employers. Sometimes it’s the same employer and they’re posting the same comment over and over again as each phase finishes. We’re looking for different employers that say, “Oh my god, I’m in love with this person.”
Usually when we read 16 profiles, we find 4 people like that. Those four people are then interviewed by my team in the Philippines, my two managers must interview each person. They do it in the same interview, so they’re doing it over 30 minutes. They ask their questions and then out of those four people, they pass two people, one or two people, onto me each day. I typically interview those one or two people myself. Out of six to seven interviews, we basically hire one person.
So, it’s 250 people a day for about 4 to 5 days, so they’re basically inviting 1,250 people. They’re getting about 75 people that are responding. They’re getting out of that maybe 20, 30 people that they’re interviewing. They’re passing on five or six to me and we’re hiring one out of that.
That sounds like a completely insane process. It is. I’ll just say we’re very nit-picky, but we were always looking for superstars. You don’t need a superstar. In your case, you could basically take all of those numbers and chop them to 10% of those numbers and you’d still end up with good people.
Matthew: When you say invite them on Upwork, if you are inviting people on Upwork, correct me if I’m wrong, are you only limited to two or three invites per person before you start paying for it? Is that correct?
Neal: Upwork doesn’t charge you anything for inviting people. Upwork is charging the person that is paying. That person is paying 20% of their fees to Upwork for the first $500 earned, then they’re paying 10% of the fees for the next $10,000 earned. That happens about eight months in. Then beyond that, they’re only paying 5%. Obviously, people want long-term jobs because instead of paying 20% to Upwork, they’re paying 5%. All of my current managerial staff is at the 5% level, because they’ve been here longer than eight months.
The only fee I pay to Upwork is the 2.75% processing fee, because we use credit cards to get airline miles.
Matthew: There you go. You were saying earlier, say the average job on Upwork is a couple weeks. What is your average retention rate for a job? Do most people stay for a year and a half? Eight months? Six months? What’s your turnover rate?
Neal: We tend to let roughly 50% of them go in the first seven or eight months. After that, our retention spikes like crazy and they stay three to four years. We let about 40% of them go in the first six months because that’s really when we’re trying to figure out, is this person truly a fit? Are they a true multitasker? Are they a technologist? We want people that are very comfortable with tech. We use 63 different software in our company, and they’ve got to get used to that kind of madness.
The retention is pretty low initially, but once they get past that—firstly, the moment they go past that eight-month timeframe, they don’t want to leave because now they’re only paying a 5% fee. They’re taking 95% of what we pay them home. Also, to make it sweet, at the 8-month point, we bump up their salary by 10%. Now, they are getting a double bonus. They get a higher salary and they keep a higher percentage. At that point, nobody wants to leave.
That’s us saying, now we’ve really got to keep this person, we don’t want them to leave because it would hurt us, having spent six-to-eight months really training them and turning them into an incredibly-productive staff.
Matthew: And then when you’re hiring them and you’re incentivizing them, you’re incentivizing them per job or how are you incentivizing them?
Neal: Well, on an hourly basis. When you start out with Upwork and you’re doing your first few jobs, you’ll probably do fixed cost, $20, 30, 50, whatever that fixed cost is. That doesn’t really last and to be honest, when you’re doing fixed-cost projects, you’re not going to get the same quality of staff. Because nobody really works to do these fixed-costs $20, 30, 50 projects. They want to do time and material sort of projects. We pay them 5.27 an hour. That’s our base salary and then it goes up to 5.56 and then 6 and then beyond 6, it’s manager bonuses and those sorts of things. So, basically, it scales from there.
Matthew: Wow, awesome. Love it. Well, definitely have learned a lot of valuable information to go hire some VAs. We appreciate that. Let’s close it out with the final questions here for you, Neal. First question is, if you were to regift a book, what is your favorite book to regift?
Neal: I’m going go give you one that’s an interesting one. It’s called Traction. I would like everyone, the first thing people will think about when they start reading this book is, “Wait a minute, I’m not at this point yet. This is one year away from where I am.” Yes, I want you to read that book now. Because it will help your journey be smoother and you’ll build the right things along the way.
Traction is a book about how to get your company from the first year to scale it to the point where it can be 10 or 20 or 100 times bigger? This is one of the most amazing books to read and what I like about it, it is not a book. It is a how-to manual. I love books that are how-to manuals. They get down to the brass tacks very quickly. Read Traction. It’s got an incredible power and has made a huge difference to our company.
Matthew: You’ve used Traction to implement your business?
Neal: Yes, portions of Traction are already implemented, and portions of Traction will be implemented over the next 12 months.
Matthew: Love it. Second question. If you were to give a TEDx talk, what would it be on and why?
Neal: I think it would be on the fact that why 99% of all real estate investors are illogical. When I look at real estate, the thing that stands out is very few sectors of the economy are based on so much emotion as real estate. I’d say that the only other industry that is as emotional as real estate is Hollywood, is entertainment.
Because the decisions being made are so completely nonsensical in so many different ways because people love to sell themselves on a concept or an idea and then everything that they’re doing is based on their already sold mind. I know that everybody does this, I do it all the time, but I think when people do it in real estate, they’re dealing with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. They’re dealing with all the money that they’ve ever made, and that’s the not the kind of decision that you make. Equivalent to you deciding what to eat at Panda Express. People are making decisions just as flippant as picking food in a restaurant.
My TED talk would be about why do people do it? Why are they forced to do it by their mind? What are the two or three things that they really need to do to get out of that loop and turn, a little bit like Mr. Spock from Star Trek. Because really, the best investor in the world would be Lieutenant Spock.
Matthew: I want to see this now, Neal. I want to see this on YouTube, very cool. Third and final question: What is the pain point or weakness you face right now in your business?
Neal: I think the biggest pain point that we face is that we are late in the cycle. I’m finding that we are doing amazing things with these team members in the Philippines. We’re able to do magic at our properties that no one else can even imagine. Imagine team members that are helping the property manager with everything from revenue management to creating leads to delinquency management to lead management. There’s so many different aspects of our business that we can optimize.
What we find is, we are still subject to the cycle. In the end, you cannot overpay for property simply because you have this incredible back office system. That’s what we’re discovering.
In the end, it’s becoming very difficult for us to buy anything at all, simply because we believe that everything in the market is overpriced. That’s a constant challenge that we have to deal with.
Matthew: Love it. Thank you very much for your answers there. Lastly, on Real Estate Journeys, we’re a value-driven podcast and we always like to give back to our audience. I believe we have a free giveaway there from you. Is that correct?
Neal: That’s right. One of the things that I like to do, for those of you that actually resonate with my idea of both value-driven and data-driven investing, we put together a toolkit on our website and this toolkit is absolutely marvelous in that firstly, there’s a one-hour presentation about the real estate trends that are driving profit across the U.S. It’s data-driven, but it’s also a fascinating map-based journey where you fly across the U.S. to different states to see what’s really happening and why are certain states and other states losing? Why are certain cities winning, other cities losing? There’s that presentation.
Then there’s sections and sections and sections of data that are tied back to that presentation in some way. Top ten lists, worst cities in America to invest in. What are the trends for senior housing? For student housing? For cold living? All those kinds of pieces and that is put together in one tool kit and we give it away for free and we encourage people to keep adding to the toolkit. People send in interesting articles and research papers all the time to us. That’s available at www.MultifamilyU.com. That’s Multifamily followed by the letter U dot com slash toolkit. Once again, MultifamilyU.com/toolkit. It’s extremely powerful. We update it every month with new content. I think it if you go there, you’d be blown away by what you’re going to find.
Matthew: We’ll make sure to include that in the show notes. What’s the best way for people to get in contact with you?
Neal: I’m very reachable. Neal, N-E-A-L, that’s the Irish spelling, [email protected] will get directly through to me.
Matthew: Awesome, I love it. Neal, thank you very much for being on the show. We appreciate it. You’re a great guest and we’ll catch you on the next go-round.
Neal: Sounds good. Thanks, Matt.
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